(MARRS-RX7) Miata Gears in Rx7 Trans?

Michael Root root.michael.j at gmail.com
Mon Dec 9 18:19:20 CET 2019


Looking forward to it!

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 12:34 PM chewy via Spec7 <spec7 at lists.specrx7.com>
wrote:

> Hows it going . Chewy here , hope to return next year and have some more
> fun with all of you .
>
> On Saturday, August 3, 2019, Michael Root via Spec7 <
> spec7 at lists.specrx7.com>
> wrote:
>
> > https://www.facebook.com/Washington-DC-Spec-RX7-Racing-102156164471645/
> >
> > I plan to add some video content, maybe tomorrow. Please consider
> joining,
> > and please *really* consider putting some SRX7 racing pics and videos up.
> > Thanks!
> >
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> >
> > On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 6:48 PM Michael Root <root.michael.j at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Well, first and foremost I can have a Facebook page up by the end of
> the
> > > weekend. Alex, or anyone else, if you would like to help with the
> social
> > > media presence, let me know. I can add you as an admin.
> > >
> > > Second, this clearly articulates to me why we've been historically slow
> > to
> > > adopt any changes. I have seen what it's done to other classes (made
> them
> > > more expensive, primarily) and it just reinforces that we need to be
> very
> > > thoughtful before making a change, and how we make that change (e.g.,
> if
> > we
> > > switch to miata gears, that becomes the new standard, not an option).
> I'm
> > > not closing any conversation, but all this needs to be considered
> > > carefully, which as the class rep I promise to continue to do. In the
> > > meantime, I can work on promoting the class, selling cars to interested
> > > folks (yes, I find people and send them to people with cars to sell)
> and
> > > generally continue to try and do what's best to keep the class active.
> > I'm
> > > not looking for 55 RX7s on the track, but 4 years ago we had over 10 a
> > race
> > > or two, and that would be good to see again.
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 11:11 AM John Uftring <johnuftring at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hey Folks,
> > >>
> > >> It's been far too many years since I turned a wheel with you guys, but
> > >> here are my $0.02 worth:
> > >>
> > >> If the gearing change is made optional, there will be people who swap
> > >> transmissions for events once they have figured out which "gear set"
> > >> provides an advantage. It's the nature of racing. If you can legally
> > gain
> > >> an advantage by doing something different, you do it. I have several
> > >> transmissions and each one with varying degrees of crunchyness in the
> > 2-3-4
> > >> range.
> > >>
> > >> The classes that other regions call Spec7 allow differing mods,
> > depending
> > >> on the region, but if I recall, they have the same problem we have,
> and
> > >> that's low turn-out. The reasons are essentially the same as ours.
> > There is
> > >> a core group of drivers that come to each race, but the class isn't
> > >> growing, or shrinking, much from year to year.
> > >>
> > >> In the southeast (I'm an NCR member) IT7 is 79-85 12A RX7s prepped to
> > ITA
> > >> specs. IT7 was broken out because the 12A RX7s just could not compete
> > >> against the boinger cars in ITA on the lions share of tracks in the
> > >> Southeast Division. IT7 suffers from the same problems that Spec7 is
> > >> suffering from, but the number of IT7 cars at a SEDiv event is maybe
> > just a
> > >> little bit higher than Spec7 turnout at a WDCR event. That class is
> also
> > >> not growing, either.
> > >> Here's something to help with the boinger reference:
> > >> https://youtu.be/oHzeGEHWMjo
> > >>
> > >> Mods to the class are always a slippery slope with varying degrees of
> > >> unintended consequences. Spec7 was a great entry-level class and drew
> a
> > lot
> > >> of cars and drivers to it 'back in the day" because it was cheap and
> > mods
> > >> were very restricted. In a Miata, I believe that WDCR's SSM is kind of
> > like
> > >> Spec7 in that respect. I remember coming up to Summit when Spec7 had
> > it's
> > >> own run-group and was fielding 55-car grids. It's still a great
> > entry-level
> > >> class, but Spec Miata has become, and eclipsed, what Spec7 was. Yes,
> it
> > >> takes a large wheelbarrow of cash and a boatload of talent to run with
> > the
> > >> big dogs in SM, but for a moderate sized bucket of cash as a
> reasonable
> > >> level of skill you can have some really good racing in the mid-pack
> > where
> > >> you learn how to wring the neck of the Miata, and there is always a
> > healthy
> > >> number of Spec Miatas at every race.
> > >>
> > >> Drive the crap out of what you've got, and have fun doing it.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >>
> > >> - John Uftring
> > >>   #94 Spec7 (gathering dust in the lower garage 🙁 )
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 8:43 AM Michael Root via Spec7 <
> > >> spec7 at lists.specrx7.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> If you're going fast you can get into 4th before turn 3, most use it
> > in 4
> > >>> and under the bridge, plus the straight.
> > >>>
> > >>> 5th is a non issue, we don't use it, even at VIR. And it's an OD
> gear,
> > so
> > >>> you're not going to get much faster regardless of it's ratio.
> > >>>
> > >>> As for more general mods, that raises the cost to get into racing as
> > well
> > >>> as maintenance. There is an IT7 class run in the south that does a
> lot
> > of
> > >>> the mods mentioned earlier - that's never been our tradition. It's
> not
> > to
> > >>> say things can't change, but there's not a big appetite to make these
> > >>> cars
> > >>> more expensive, as most people would just go get a Miata at 5k, so
> it's
> > >>> not
> > >>> likely to help, but hurt. Plus, if you want to run a modded RX7,
> > there's
> > >>> always the EP class.
> > >>>
> > >>> v/r
> > >>> Michael J. Root, PMP
> > >>>
> > >>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019, 8:00 AM DANNY MATULA via Spec7 <
> > >>> spec7 at lists.specrx7.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> > One thing to consider is that yes the top speed in that gear maybe
> a
> > >>> little
> > >>> > higher but the car may not pull as hard in 3rd gear either. If I
> > >>> remember
> > >>> > correctly the only time I saw 4th (at summit) was on the front
> > stretch
> > >>> but
> > >>> > it's been 8 years for me so it's a little foggy
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > On Fri, Aug 2, 2019, 07:54 Alex C via Spec7 <
> spec7 at lists.specrx7.com
> > >
> > >>> > wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > > Hi Guys,
> > >>> > > Ive been keeping up with the thoughts on the RX7-Miata gears and
> > >>> thought
> > >>> > id
> > >>> > > weigh in..
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > First, - hi again.  Ive been on this list for about 12 years and
> > have
> > >>> > gone
> > >>> > > through around 6 RX7's including a spec 7 that i purchased back
> in
> > >>> 2009
> > >>> > or
> > >>> > > so.  Economic downturn hit, car got sold and i never drove it,
> etc.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > I just bought Matt Littletons old car from Drew Duke who
> > surprisingly
> > >>> > lives
> > >>> > > about 7 miles from me here in Manassas.  He's prepping Jack
> Burrows
> > >>> old
> > >>> > car
> > >>> > > and now i'm trying to piece together whats left of Matt' old car
> to
> > >>> see
> > >>> > > what I'm dealing with to be ready for next year  So, I dont want
> to
> > >>> speak
> > >>> > > for Drew but I guess its safe to say there are two of us trying
> to
> > >>> get
> > >>> > > ready for next season.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > So, back to the gears -
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Agree - spec class, etc.  Maybe there is a way to make minor
> > changes
> > >>> to
> > >>> > > offset the gear changes with tire diameter?  or even a custom 5th
> > >>> gear
> > >>> > only
> > >>> > > for the Miata set (I mean, you have to pull the transmissions
> apart
> > >>> > anyway
> > >>> > > to do this so one gear isn't a big deal / cost).
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > From the side of keeping it a spec series and keeping people in
> the
> > >>> > class;
> > >>> > > first, i want to say that I don't want to overstep my bounds
> here.
> > >>> I may
> > >>> > > have been on the list for a while but I haven't raced with either
> > of
> > >>> you
> > >>> > in
> > >>> > > RX7's although a lot of you I've met / know through other means
> > >>> (karting,
> > >>> > > Chump etc) with some of them being ex SRX7 guys (Mike Wu, Keith
> > >>> Shugarts,
> > >>> > > etc).
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > That being said, I think one of the things that are giving the
> > class
> > >>> some
> > >>> > > issues is the marketability to the younger crowd.  Most of the
> > >>> younger
> > >>> > guys
> > >>> > > want to do a few more mods, change a few more things, etc. and
> cant
> > >>> do
> > >>> > that
> > >>> > > because of how the rules are written and how some of the rules
> > >>> appear at
> > >>> > > first glance to be different between regions (Isnt it southwest
> > that
> > >>> runs
> > >>> > > headers but stock radiators?).  My *personal* take on this would
> be
> > >>> to
> > >>> > add
> > >>> > > some different things that either A) don't make a huge difference
> > >>> (sort
> > >>> > of
> > >>> > > like the Miata gear argument) or  B) can just be updated a little
> > to
> > >>> meet
> > >>> > > the times especially since there are some different rules among
> > >>> different
> > >>> > > SRX7 classes that I've seen from different areas of the country.
> > >>> Things
> > >>> > > that come off the top of my head would be headers, short
> shifters,
> > >>> maybe
> > >>> > > even a coilover setup (standard - as close to the spring / shock
> > >>> rate we
> > >>> > > have now but gives a bit more flexibility) front and rear lip
> > >>> spoilers,
> > >>> > > etc..  Like I said, I'm totally not an expert and don't want to
> > upset
> > >>> > > anyone.  I've been trying to dig back through the rules to try to
> > get
> > >>> > > re-familiarized with both the class and SCCA rules so please dont
> > >>> take
> > >>> > > offense if this makes me look like a total nut-job.  Just some
> > ideas
> > >>> I
> > >>> > > wanted to throw out there.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Anyway, happen to join into any discussion or help in any way I
> > can.
> > >>> > > Thanks!
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Alex
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 9:43 PM Michael Root via Spec7 <
> > >>> > > spec7 at lists.specrx7.com> wrote:
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > > Well, the point is to move to something with more reliability,
> > not
> > >>> > > provide
> > >>> > > > a "track to track" option depending on which trans ratio is
> best.
> > >>> > > However,
> > >>> > > > that's a good point that you make, a clear unintended
> > consequence.
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > <
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> >
> > >>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
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> > >>> > >
> > >>> >
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> > >>> > > > >
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> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 6:33 PM cwarmbrust via Spec7 <
> > >>> > > > spec7 at lists.specrx7.com>
> > >>> > > > wrote:
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > > Michael,
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > Great workup on the gearing comparison. I strongly suspect
> the
> > >>> > > difference
> > >>> > > > > or advantage/disadvantage would vary from track to track.
> Each
> > >>> track
> > >>> > > has
> > >>> > > > > its own personality, and preferred gearing.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > The idea of a spec car is just that, identical cars. Changes
> in
> > >>> gear
> > >>> > > > > ratios from track to track is not our thing. Thus, one or the
> > >>> other
> > >>> > > will
> > >>> > > > > tend dominate at our home track.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > Just a thought.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > W
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > Beamed in from an iPhone somewhere in space.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > On Jul 29, 2019, at 19:46, Michael Root via Spec7 <
> > >>> > > > spec7 at lists.specrx7.com>
> > >>> > > > > wrote:
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > The question has been raised in the past about putting Miata
> > >>> gears
> > >>> > and
> > >>> > > > > syncros in our trans since RX7 3rd gears/syncros are getting
> > >>> hard to
> > >>> > > find
> > >>> > > > > (and the ones left are "well used"). We've always endeavored
> to
> > >>> keep
> > >>> > > the
> > >>> > > > > cost of this class low, and I want to honor that. I also
> don't
> > >>> want
> > >>> > to
> > >>> > > be
> > >>> > > > > swapping transmissions constantly (my last three were iffy
> from
> > >>> the
> > >>> > get
> > >>> > > > go,
> > >>> > > > > and one caused a fire). Miata gears were built to handle a
> > little
> > >>> > more
> > >>> > > > > power, so they should wear better, and we can get new parts
> > >>> today,
> > >>> > > which
> > >>> > > > we
> > >>> > > > > can't with 1st gen RX7s. Bret can do the work, cost is still
> > TBD.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > There's also a discussion on how much of an advantage will
> > Miata
> > >>> > gears
> > >>> > > > give
> > >>> > > > > someone over someone who doesn't have the modification. I've
> > >>> > attached a
> > >>> > > > > gear ratio chart below if someone wants to do the math (I
> have
> > no
> > >>> > clue
> > >>> > > > what
> > >>> > > > > this actually translates too in the real world). If we do
> > decide
> > >>> to
> > >>> > do
> > >>> > > > > this, it will be an off-season rule change this winter,
> giving
> > >>> those
> > >>> > of
> > >>> > > > us
> > >>> > > > > who race on the regular time to get the work done before the
> > 2020
> > >>> > > season.
> > >>> > > > > Apparently it's a minor modification that requires some
> simple
> > >>> > > > machining. I
> > >>> > > > > don't know the details myself. According to my google-fu, the
> > >>> miata
> > >>> > > gears
> > >>> > > > > go right in, but one must slightly modify (chop) the input
> > shaft.
> > >>> > > > > Seriously, google it, there's a ton on doing this
> modification.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > To me, the big issue will be price. If it's cheap enough, I
> > think
> > >>> > most
> > >>> > > of
> > >>> > > > > us would do this for the peace of mind. We can even have a
> few
> > >>> spares
> > >>> > > > built
> > >>> > > > > in case any new comers show up. People may also think this
> is a
> > >>> bad
> > >>> > > idea,
> > >>> > > > > and not want to do it. I'm open to all inputs. I'm looking
> for
> > >>> the
> > >>> > > option
> > >>> > > > > that will keep people in the class longer; I'm not looking to
> > run
> > >>> > > anyone
> > >>> > > > > out.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > Car 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
> > >>> > > > > 79-83 RX-7 3.674:1 2.217:1 1.432:1 1:01 .825:1
> > >>> > > > > RWD 626 3.214:1 1.818:1 1.296:1 1:01 .858:1
> > >>> > > > > 84-85 RX-7 3.622:1 2.186:1 1.419:1 1:01 .807:1 12A
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > .711:1 '84.5-85 13B
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > .758:1 '84-84.5 13B
> > >>> > > > > 86-91 NA RX-7 3.475:1 2.002:1 1.366:1 1:01 .691, 86=.711
> > >>> > > > > Miata 3.136:1 1.888:1 1.330:1 1:01 .814:1
> > >>> > > > > '85+ B2000/2200 3.622:1 2.186:1 1.419:1 1:01 .858:1
> > >>> > > > > 99+ Miata 6-speed 3.76:1 2.269:1 1.645:1 1.257:1 1:01 0.843:1
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > --
> > >>> > > > > v/r
> > >>> > > > > Michael J. Root, PMP
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > <
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> >
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> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > Spec7 mailing list,  http://specrx7.com
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> > >>> > > > > --
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > .
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > >
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> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > >  .
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > --
> > >>> > > > v/r
> > >>> > > > Michael J. Root, PMP
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > <
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> >
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> > >>> > > > --
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > >  .
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > --
> > >>> > > V/r
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Alex Cumming
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Spec7 mailing list,  http://specrx7.com
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> > >>> > > --
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >  .
> > >>> > >
> > >>> >
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> > >>> >  .
> > >>> >
> > >>>
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> > >>> --
> > >>>
> > >>>  .
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > > --
> > > v/r
> > > Michael J. Root, PMP
> > >
> > >
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> >
> > --
> > v/r
> > Michael J. Root, PMP
> >
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-- 
v/r
Michael J. Root, PMP



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